ETF

CointestMod

#Litecoin Pro-Arguments Below is a Litecoin pro-argument written by metnavman. > *Full Disclosure* > > *I sold my position in LTC this year during the last run-up to the ~$300s. Prior to that, I'd held a triple-digit position in LTC since ~2013. I did make money from this coin. That is only because of my time in the market, and not any particular strength of the coin in question. Truth be told, I'd have made more money being in other positions, so it is irrelevant. Perhaps I'll regret it one day. Perhaps not.* > >   > > * LTC is one of the "OG" coins. [As a fork of the Bitcoin protocol, it's been around almost as long.](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/litecoin.asp) It is a very secure coin, and utilizes [Proof of Work](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/proof-work.asp) through Scrypt to maintain that security. > > * This "early mover" advantage has allowed LTC to catapult into some very strong positions and use cases. I'd personally put it's [uses on the Paypal platform](https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/what-do-i-need-to-know-about-litecoin-faq4401) as one of it's strongest positions in the current financial zeitgeist. [There are certainly lots of others.](https://www.reddit.com/r/litecoin/comments/csfixo/1100_companies_and_stores_accepting_litecoin_as/). > > * LTC is arguably the strongest PoW coin available. It is faster than BTC, cheaper to use, and available for use basically everywhere relevant that BTC is. As far as trading platforms and "on-ramps" for converting fiat currency into cryptocurrency, LTC will get you where you want to go. While it is not worth as much as BTC, it's far more capable for doing what a cryptocurrency is "supposed" to do. Ya know, be a currency that doesn't cost silly amounts of fees to use and take forever to confirm. > > * LTC's development team is currently working on implementing [Mimblewimble](https://www.mycryptopedia.com/mimblewimble-explained/) capabilities to the coin. The quick and dirty for that is adding a "privacy feature" to LTC, as well as potentially solving scalability issues that could crop up one day if usage of the coin were to exponentially increase. Development is ongoing in 2021, and viability/efficacy is not fully determined as of this writing. > > * LTC follows the same [halving](https://stormgain.com/blog/litecoin-ltc-halving) protocol as BTC. This has correlated to price increases for the coin in a similar fashion to BTC after each of these "cycles". It stands to reason that LTC should see another price increase in the 2024-2025 time-frame, coinciding with the next halving [set to occur in Q3 2023](https://litecoinblockhalf.com/). There's math and wrinkly-brain reasons for why it takes some time for the halving process to reflect in the market price. You'd have to go searching; I don't really understand it. There's a shiny graph on that link I put. Have fun. > >   > > ==*The rest of this will lean in the opposite direction of the guidelines set forth for this argument. Past this point, you're entirely in the realm of my opinion/experience as a crypto holder/trader since the early 2010s. Do your own research.*== > >   > > * I would stress that you proceed to [the LTC "Cons" portion of these arguments](https://old.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/n5vbyk/pro_contest_litecoin_conarguments/) after finishing here and read what I've written there as well. My goal is to remain as unbiased as possible for these write-ups, and I will speak only to the positives of LTC in this thread. I encourage you, the reader, to view both sides and make an educated decision before investing in *any* crypto asset. > > * LTC offers a "tried and trusted" investment platform. If there was a stock to compare LTC to, it's the massive ETF or mutual fund that people put money into year after year and reliably draw a profit from. You will not see the insane fireworks of a DOGE pump, or the rug-pull of a [BITCONNEEEEECT](https://thenextweb.com/news/bitconnect-bitcoin-scam-cryptocurrency) when you put your money into LTC. You will get an investment that "should" make you money in the long run, and potentially set you up for some really solid gains in the future. > > * LTC is not the behemoth that BTC is within the crypto space. The intimidation that comes from the price-tag that BTC sometimes wields ($37K to own one coin at the time of this writing, 60K+ attained) can be a turn-off for the smaller investor still interested in owning a "full coin". While this mindset is considered by veterans within the space to be somewhat naive and counterproductive, it is a psychological aspect that affects many projects within crypto. LTC's ability to allow someone to jump in at a much lower price point and still feel like their investment is "effective" is certainly a strength. > > * LTC has been picked up in the 2021 bull-run by [large institutional entities](https://news.bitcoin.com/grayscale-adds-174000-ltc-to-its-litecoin-holdings-price-of-the-altcoin-unresponsive/), signalling some confidence in it's ability to generate income in some fashion for shareholders/investors. It remains to be seen how this action will play out, as the events are too closely aligned with the large correction in late May 2021 before the coin could pick up steam. [It briefly touched a high-300s price-tag](https://currency.com/litecoin-price-prediction-2021), and many of LTC's supporters believe that it was aiming to go higher before the entire market dropped. > >   > > LTC has carved out a solid niche for itself over the years, and a loyal base that wants to see it succeed. As with any investment into a volatile market like crypto, there's a good chance you could lose some money. That said, I would put the chances of it happening with LTC over the long run at a smaller percentage than some of the more risky or "unreliable" projects in the space. If you have patience and are looking for a low-stress coin with some realistic use cases and a good track record for ease-of-use and operability within the crypto-world, LTC may be the coin for you! ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Litecoin) to find submissions for other topics.

caad5242

I’m telling you this is the top and you are gonna get rekt. Also, 70k is not pocket money. The majority of this subreddit will never come close to making 70k off crypto. When Bitcoin was 7k that was a much smaller market cap and a lot easier to get new money in. It’s tapped out, you can pray to Saylor but the ETF and banks aren’t going to take you to the promise land. Bitcoin is going to dump on the banks and the Etf boys are the new retail.

eggaholic69

Especially because blackrock announced that exactly by saying sovereign wealth funds and pensions are being lined up to buy their ETF. [https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/05/02/blackrock-sees-sovereign-wealth-funds-pensions-coming-to-bitcoin-etfs/](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/05/02/blackrock-sees-sovereign-wealth-funds-pensions-coming-to-bitcoin-etfs/)

eggaholic69

They announced that they will acquire bitcoin for themselves in addition to funding the ETF. I don't know if they have filed their Q1 yet.

CorneliusFudgem

You can use bitrefill or a wide variety of third party service providers to easily pay for things w bitcoin. U can also easily liquidate and sell bitcoin. U can trade bitcoin derivatives, long short, futures. There are ETF’s for it. It’s used more than countless actual currencies that are currently nosediving. Ignoring this would be an ostrich with their head in the sand move. Imagine the people who did this when it was $10. Why would you possibly think now of all times is when to say “but it’s not a currency” lol. It doesn’t matter what it is. It’s the 16th largest by market cap and people are using it every day for every possible use. Just because it’s not accepted as legal tender where u live doesn’t mean it’s not 1. Literal legal tender - or 2. It’s not legitimate such that it’s proven itself to be resilient and used as a literal digital currency for over a decade now. Nobody cares what it’s deemed. It’s more of a real currency than the vast majority of currencies claiming to be real. If anything they’re completely illegitimate and the fact bitcoin is still this nascent and successful shows how effective it is as a currency, whether it fits your definition of one or not.

analogOnly

**Most** of the ETF inflows have been mainly retail so far. The 13F filings come out this week I think. You will be able to see how many institutions have yet to buy into the ETFs. Short answer, it's a very small number.

EdwardPotatoHand

Do you have a ROTH IRA? I’m not sure your income level, but a ROTH IRA is really a great thing for someone in their 20s. It allows you to invest in your retirement and not pay taxes on the growth. You have a lot of years before retirement, and investing early will help create REALLY BIG growth. Make sure you have some cash in savings for emergencies, but if you aren’t doing a Roth IRA, do one. Buy S&P500 index fund and bitcoin ETF in that retirement fund. How much of each? That’s up to you, everyone here will have different recommendations. I If I was in my 20s i would be doing 50/50 bitcoin ETF and S&P500 fund..

PieceOfMined1290

The same could be said for gold and silver. But they manipulate it anyways. If the ETF’s being enough demand. Then ETF inflows and outflows will eventually be the main factor in pricing bitcoin. Add leverage both ways and that’s exactly what they do with gold and silver. If they’re able to manipulate a market the size of gold. They can manipulate the much smaller market of bitcoin.

PieceOfMined1290

I agree with that. But even bitcoin that’s self custody can be price manipulated through ETF’s and derivatives. The same way gold and silver are. Mainstream adoption like we got is not what we wanted in the end. It turns a limited supply commodity into an infinite supply commodity.

macjonalt

Well, it’s Grayscale customers who are probably buying alternative ETF products. Also miners getting out of the game maybe. Where are you getting the idea China is selling? 

CryptoMoneyLand

Ok, here is the question. Why would or why won't mainland China want BTC ETF?

PepeDeCorozal

JP Morgan has no ETF or other bitcoin products for sale. The bitcoin ETF they are buying is for *their* corporate treasury.

PieceOfMined1290

The second bitcoin became part of an ETF. It entered the derivative world. The “supply” no longer exists just like in other markets like gold and silver. There are thousands of ounces traded for every ounce that actually exists. Same can happen with bitcoin. They want the price to go down? They’ll short it and smash the price. They want it to go up? They’ll go long. They’re getting in because they can finally manipulate it. So no this is not a good thing if you want bitcoin to go to a bazillion like this sub implies.

oog_ooog

I remember people on here saying the ETF would send Bitcoin to $100k or $1000k. Bitcoin is just a trading vessel now. They’ll move Bitcoin to where they want it. Headed to below $20k before too long

avance70

for the long run, cold storage is the safest more than half of current bitcoin ETF issuers will probably not exist in 20-30 years

AllCapNoBrake

What BTC products do JPMorgan & Wells Fargo offer that customers can buy? I have accounts with both and didn't know they sell BTC and/or ETF's.

big_fetus_

Why would an ETF mean anything for a utility token? ETH isnt BTC lol.

pdlvw

Does BlackRock have bitcoin (ETFs) on their balance sheet? They are a ETF supplier, what doent mean they have them on their own balance.

wolffalcon1

Bitcoin ETF name please ? Suggestion ?

HerboClevelando

Bitcoin’s entire price history is based on game theory. It is the reason why I entered first the space in 2013, later left, came back again, left, came back (Blackrock’s 6/23 ETF filing), and have been again exiting the space after the expected post-ETF spikes.

Killjoytshirts

Isn’t LTC much more likely to get an ETF approval than ETH? Why are they acting like it’s so imminent?

kehmesis

Then why buy bitcoin in the first place? If you think of it as an investment, you are perfectly right. ETF is the way to go. Way simpler: dollars in, dollars out. It's simply not why we bitcoin. We believe the dollar will become worthless and bitcoin will replace it. When that becomes true, you'll regret not owning any and be stuck with trillions or worthless dollars.

rtreffer

ETF(US) or ETP/ETN(EU). You want an 18 year safeguard. That will cost you less than 10% over these years. Yes, this has all the downsides of a fund managing the asset. But there is a good chance it will be around when you aren't, and all questions around inheritance are solved.

BitcoinBaller420

The ETF has a small fee ~0.25% per year, and it has existential government seizure risk. Self custody has no fee, but has its own existential risk. Life is hard. Probably best to start with the ETF, but actively use a wallet to get comfortable with it, slowly moving more substantial amounts of your net worth over time. Good luck! 👍🍀 

Willing_Turnover5568

It’s unlikely that the US government will seize ETF shares (in our lifetime) and if the situation becomes so bad that it does it will also take any proceeds from selling BTC. In such case, your BTC in cold storage may be safe but you won’t be able to do anything with it.

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; The article discusses four reasons to buy Ethereum, highlighting its potential for significant growth. These reasons include stabilizing interest rates, a declining supply of Ethereum due to the 'London' upgrade and the switch to proof of stake, the possibility of future ETF approvals, and the growth of decentralized apps on the Ethereum network. Despite its volatility, Ethereum is seen as having a lot of upside potential, with predictions of its price reaching as high as $166,000 by 2032 according to Ark Invest's Cathie Wood. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

VOX_IRRATIONALIS

I am a short/mid-term bitcoiner who only cares about entry and exit prices. I have little concern for Bitcoin's long-term prospects or its lofty goals. I think bitcoin ETF is great for mid-term investment due to the tax benefits available when purchasing with a tax-sheltered account.

Top_Mathematician895

Substitute bitcoin with any other asset. You have invested $1,200 in bitcoin. In order to reach “6 figures” bitcoin will need to reach $6 million, giving you $120,000. Not impossible, but take into account your unrealistic expectations, you will probably sell your .02 BTC in the next 2 years and this post will eventually prove obsolete. Invest daily into an asset that you understand and eventually you will be successful. That could be bitcoin, or an ETF, or a mutual fund.

marginwhite

I'm excited about ETF, but I'm also scared because the more bitcoin they hold, the more likely it is that the market will be manipulated.

BTCMAXE

That’s what’s always confused me about cold wallets that have to connect in some way though—they’re not “technically” cold anymore. Now look, if Jade is connecting in a way I’m not aware, then it’s not cold, either. You and I have chosen this route of relying on a device produced by a company to take self-custody of BTC. At that point, we’re no longer trustless. That fact, in and of itself, exposes the both of us. The only question is: Have we mitigated our risk more than someone who simply trusts a custodial exchange or an ETF? I would argue yes.

Coretron

Pro shares ETF is down. 2.8% today, while Bitcoin is slightly up. Until ETFs trade 24/7 and actually match the price of Bitcoin I think they're whack. That said, it definitely lends serious credibility to bitcoin. That ETFs are a thing now

Buzzalu

What are everyone's general thoughts on the ETF so far?

RizzoStaxx

You can…. But if bitcoin truly takes off. You won’t be able to sell the etf and get the same amount into bitcoin. By the time you sell, cash settles, you pay taxes and transfer the rest to an exchange. You will Not be getting as much bitcoin as if you just had bought BTC from the beginning. My question to you is why are you here right now? If you understood how important and powerful this simple yet elegant tech is. Then why would you not want to self custody? You’re in it to make dollars right? Okay then buy the ETF. I’m into BTC because I want BETTER money than dollars🤡

Cool-Topic8096

Give your money to someone else to hold and have them return it back to you when you need it. Orrrrr.... Hold your money yourself and give it to yourself when you need it. Not a hard one to figure out. I'm not anti-government either. Governments can work with bitcoin just like gold. The harder any government/organization resists this thing, the more valuable it will become in the world. It's happening right in front of us. Has been since 2009. The proper thing to say maybe is you don't feel comfortable handling the keys to your own safety deposit box, so you feel better ETF'ing. Not some dumb libertarian bs.

Ragnar_Danneskjold__

Premise 1: Bitcoin will arrive at an equilibrium fraction of global wealth, oscillating around this fraction. Premise 2: Global production, through technological innovation, will continue to increase. Premise 3: Bitcoin is finite. Therefore: Bitcoin's value (measured in assets) will continue to increase. In this sense bitcoin is like a total world ETF with no ongoing management fee or rotation costs. It therefore will eventually gain in line with said growth and global technological development. Until then, bitcoin is in a rapid adoption phase, and will vastly outperform global productivity.

HumbleBitcoinPleb

"I don't want to deal with high risk, potential access issues with my BTC in the future, government fuckery, etc." LMAO. That's an argument in favor of holding your own keys, not buying an ETF.

No-Health46

Let’s keep it simple, son.. Holding a ETF instead of the real thing is like.. Having a d!ck and losing ability to erect or impregnate a woman.

Cheap_Meaning

I do both. In Canada we have a tax free savings account (not sure about US). I own the BTC ETF just for fiat gains to use in retirement tax free or however/whenever I want to and not pay any tax in gains. Leaves the option to also sell 'at the top' and buy real BTC on dips if I believe I can time the market lol. I also have the ETF in registered education fund for my kids where gov gives a grant to contributions so it's free money all of which goes Into BTC ETF. Everything outside of that is cold storage FU money for the future.

spid3rfly

I haven't skimmed this thread yet but I'll offer what I do. I have a self custody stack. I also set my fiance up with her own stack. She knows how to restore her wallet and transfer when needed. ETF related. Day 1, I bought a bunch of FBTC in my Roth. Since then, I usually buy 1 or 2 shares every pay day. I consider those ETFs my sell stack but I'll probably never ever sell. I'm 38 so that IRA won't be touched until I'm 59 or older... if bitcoin goes up in huge multiples in the next 21 years(which it's going to), I'm going to have some nice gains that are in a tax advantaged account that I can draw from at that time. I won't even need to touch my self custody stack. If I die without ever needing that IRA stack, then it can be passed to my family. I'm not too worried if my self custody stack dies with me. It'll be a donation to the community and all of us that have been and will be here for so long.

Good_Extension_9642

I agree with OP in the grand scheme of things there is a greater risk of loosing the BTC by a scam attack or a transaction mistake intead of a BTC ETF, I also own both but rather invest heavily in the ETF for my piece of mind

5DollarsInTheWoods

Because Apocalypse.😉 The truth is, self-custody carries a far greater risk of loss than an ETF. For ownership and decentralized portability, self-custody is the only way to go. For ease of investment with exposure to Bitcoin, spot ETFs are perfect. They give you tax advantages, increased safety, and are easily transferred to loved ones. Pick you ethos, and go for whatever suits your needs.

Jub-n-Jub

ETF is how you leave the door open for government fuckery.

CosmicBushi

I personally don’t think we will ever see sub 30k again and that’s my absolute bearish number, realistically 46k but who knows many factors are in play to determine where we go from here. We’ve never hit a new ath pre halving like we did this year. Never had the legitimacy of an approved BTC ETF for all these institutes to allocate huge chunks of their portfolio into. Every small 1-5% dip gets bought up like it’s nothing. We’re in weird times rn

godofleet

they aren't yet, wait for the ETF / 6102 style rug pull... with each rug and with every fiat monetary unit printed people will get it more and more... one money is finite, the other is not and if the wealthy have control of your bitcoin via an IOU - it's not your bitcoin... but it's still the most scarce thing our species has encountered. and before everyone goes "how will getting rug pulled convince people to adopt bitcoin more" - bitcoin won't be the thing that rug pulled them, their fiat slave owners will be and it will be blatantly obvious BECAUSE bitcoin exists to show us the failings of trust based money. in time we will pressure our governments / institutions to ensure 100% reserves to mitigate rug pulls - they will still happen even then... but one day, everyone will be on the same page about sound money... not because they will understand it or because the justice system works - but because their fiat will have inflated away to nothing and bitcoin will be the only thing standing.

bichkrichdrick

As someone who has both - liquidity (process of converting ETF to Actual BTC/cash took about 1 week) - limited to market hours - paying unnecessary expense ratios + FDIC insured (not confirmed?) + I do believe there’s still a small arbitrage between etf price and btc value ? + while it is an IOU, there’s less risk of insolvency of the financial institution (FDIC) or have to self custody and risk losing a password/scam threats

Yodel_And_Hodl_Mode

> This sub is full of ETF cucks now. Even before that though... in December, before the ETFs launched, the total number of addresses with a balance was around 50 million. So it's not like people are leaving self custody to buy the ETFs. Self custody numbers are actually going up, but the vast majority of people who own Bitcoin keep their coins on an exchange, which means they don't *own* Bitcoin at all.

Corbimos

This sub is full of ETF cucks now. I agree with you, but I'm afraid this message will fall on deaf ears.

wee_d

The SEC approved the spot ETFs because the courts basically forced their hand when they lost in court to Grayscale after rejecting their application for a spot ETF. So you have Grayscale and the courts to thank for that. Left to Gensler alone, there would be no spot ETF. More over, Trump has changed his tune on crypto just as Michael Saylor went from anti BTC to pro BTC. Trump and his wife have been selling NFTs and cards and has said he’ll be taking crypto for campaign donations. When asked about crypto in February, he said, “You probably have to do some regulation. But many people are embracing it. More and more I'm seeing people wanting to pay with Bitcoin, and you're seeing something that's interesting, so I can live with it one way or the other."

analogOnly

ETF when you have no cash available to invest, only when you have funds locked (by penalty tax) in an IRA or 401k. If you have cash buy BTC directly. That's my 33 sats.

Corbimos

Let's keep this on topic. You don't own bitcoin with an ETF. You own an IOU redeemable in USD. If you could actually withdraw, I wouldn't be so hard on it. But you can't. You own cuck bucks anchored to the bitcoin price. You don't own the coin at all. If you can drive a car, you can hold bitcoin. If you really cared, you could hold it securely. We have Multisig and collaborative custody models that are very easily accessible if you areny willfully ignorant. The poeple you are talking about didn't care enough to do it right. People don't care enough while driving all the time, and they destroy their vehicles or lives often. Yet, we still advocate for people to own their own cars, no one says the majority should take ride shares for their day to day living.

Rufus_Anderson

But you can’t lose a BTC ETF in a boating accident so what’s the point??

Forgot_Password_Dude

if the goal is to cash out to spend it and you're ok with the risks of not holding your own keys and trust the government/ETF enough then that's fine. every decision is a risk, even holding your own keys has a risk as you've mentioned. as long as you're ok with the risks just don't regret whatever decisions you make when shit does hit the fan

iratezero

Depends where you're at in your journey and your risk tolerance. In general it's prudent to spread out your risk to mitigate it as much as feasible. If you're fully orange pilled and somewhat technically savvy you might have some BTC in cold storage for long term, some on an exchange for short term, and some in an ETF in a retirement account. If you're not comfortable with keeping a bunch of 12/24-word seed phrases safe and having no one to call if you make a mistake or somehow get defrauded, governments outlawing self-custody or removing the on/off ramps (no shame in it, the shit is nerve wracking), one of the Bitcoin ETFs with a big provider like a Fidelity or a Blackrock is a good option.

Cool-Topic8096

Mine is T-0, and 6 hours for a small fee. Cash. I get diversifying. Not knocking it. You are just describing not holding your own money. Don't understand that part. Giving it to someone else. And I would never put large amounts of assets on exchanges. You are putting all your money into an ETF. Not sure you're getting it. It's okay though. It hits people at different times when they're like I get it. Bitcoin.

Rydog_78

Pros and cons with the ETF. Biggest con is you never own BTC to begin with. Just an IOW legal paper that says you can exchange your iou for dollars. Second biggest con is that the government could outlaw Bitcoin and with institutions being large custodians of BTC, you will be forced to sell your ETF (and in turn, the institutions will sell their BTC in custody to the government) for whatever the price of Bitcoin is at that moment in time. Basically the government will hand you (hopefully) what is fair market value in dollars for whatever amount of ETF’s you hold. As a believer in the ETF for many reasons such as holding in tax advantaged accounts and higher grade security of BTC than your normal retail user. The government attack vector on centralized custodial BTC is a real concern for me since the government has already shown in past that it has outlawed ownership of gold in the 1930’s and forced people to turn in their gold ownership. It would be more difficult to take away BTC who custody their own BTC as it hey can leave the country with just their seed phrase memorized and start anew in a BTC friendly place. Fool me once Shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me I guess.

yldf

That’s true, but at the same time people are talking about buying monthly or even weekly, accumulating fees… those might be better off with the ETF probably.

B1ggusDckus

Its not easy to compare as the ETF fee is yearly but self-custody fees are per trade. So the reddit ideal btc hodler would pay only once for the trade aquiring the btc and for the hw wallet (as he would spend btc directly).

RebelliousRoomba

This is a very similar argument to what the people of Poland said right before Hitler invaded them. Here are a couple of examples of some recent events that are worth considering: A longtime friend of mine is Canadian and had all of his bank accounts frozen by his government a couple years ago for a period of time while he was investigated for ties to protests. Although he was eventually cleared, the government used asset freezing as a weapon against those they wanted to silence. Similarly, a university colleague of mine was working in Russia when the Ukraine war started and the Russian Ruble started tanking in value. Additionally, Russians were banned from exchanging their currency for something more stable. Luckily he is a Bitcoiner and he was able to safely leave the country with no detrimental impact to his buying power. As an American myself, I understand that the idea of government seizure of assets seems unlikely, but it really is worth recognizing that humans in power throughout history have exercised undue influence over and over and over. Do not assume that because you haven’t yet experienced having your bank assets frozen that it cannot happen to us here. Owning actual Bitcoin is freedom. They can’t take it even if they want to. If you just choose an ETF then cool, you do you, and I honestly hope it’s an incredible investment for you. I simply do not have enough faith in humans to even give them the option to take my personal buying power.

Street_Worry_1435

Bitcoin was designed to be P2P permissionless. ETF is neither of these things. What you choose is up to you but if you go the ETF route the only thing that you will truly own are the consequences. Why is bitcoin even a thing? What makes people choose to buy it? You can get intelligence from any number of sources but wisdom is gained by life experiences. A wise person would do their best to take as much freedom as possible from those who seek to deny it. Fredrick Douglas said that knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave. Choose whatever you like but to whatever degree you feel the leash tighten just know that it was your choice.

Awkward_Potential_

I definitely own Bitcoin in self custody. I also definitely own a lot of the ETFs. My main goal for the ETF is to eventually sell much of it once bitocin hits $100k, then later $1 million and put it into S&P ETFs. It's just a way to get there quicker

Salty_Tumbleweed_491

A friend of mine wanted to invest in a BTC ETF but because of he volatility of crypto , he needed I think $5m-$10m in assets

Remarkable-Pea7931

if all you care about is price exposure then the ETF is fine. no need to overthink this.

c94

And what has he done to hurt it long term? BTC ETF got approved, Coinbase still exists and cold storage is not going anywhere. Regulatory clarity and cracking down on crime is good for the industry. The growing pains are all part of the maturing process. Crypto is much more stable than it was 4 years ago.

the_lone_unlearned

Unbiased answer that you probably won't get from most people on a bitcoin forum: Yeah nothing wrong with buying an ETF. As long as you trust the ETF owner's security. Buying an ETF is like buying any other Wall St investment, as long as they keep the bitcoin backing the ETF secure. I guess an ETF miiiight be easier to pass on when you die? Maybe. The ETFs are essentially the same thing as if you were to buy Bitcoin on an exchange and keep it there, since most ETFs literally use Coinbase (or another exchange) for custody, except you can never USE the bitcoin, it's just purely an investment so you have no option to directly own it yourself, which is a pretty huge downside for a lot of people. Also not sure why you say government fuckery as a reason to have an ETF, as having Bitcoin is what would alleviate govt fuckery, not an ETF. But generally the only reason to buy an ETF instead of Bitcoin itself is for people whose funds HAVE to stay in TradFi, like investment firms' who want to add bitcoin to their managed funds to improve the returns, or individuals with retirement accounts that can't access anything outside TradFi, or for old people who are just confused and think there is something scary about signing up on a crypto exchange and buying Bitcoin, so they just prefer to use TradFi that they are familiar with. If none of those apply to you, not much reason to choose an ETF instead of owning bitcoin itself. I guess two upsides of an ETF are 1) that I assume the firms do the tax accounting for you, whereas with Bitcoin you have to do that yourself since you can move bitcoin around between wallets and you have to keep track of the cost basis as it moves, and 2) it officially counts as net worth for legal reasons, so if you are doing something like taking out a loan/mortgage or in some way need to prove you have a certain amount of money, you can't do that with Bitcoin because its outside the system, whereas with the ETF you can obviously show that is yours. So there certainly are reasons to go with an ETF, but for the average person who knows how to buy Bitcoin usually it makes a lot more sense to just buy Bitcoin. ETF is only for certain specific reasons.

Win_with_Math

Buying a Bitcoin spot ETF is a great way to invest. I’ve never seen a post where someone’s ETF money was stolen by the government. I’ve seen tons of post from people who thought they were being careful but their wallet was hacked and they’re still not sure what they did wrong. Many have lost everything as a result of this. Not worth the risk IMHO.

Spl00ky

You can't spend your ETF holding of bitcoin

lostsoul2016

Fuck Dimon and fuck his hands. All this time he keep Debbydowning Bitcoin so price gets pushed down, only to have an ETF setup quietly. The pressure from investors and profit projections must have been immense enough to shut him up. Hopefully for good.

Proof-Opening481

Don’t listen to the Tin hat crowd. The self custody feature of BTC isn’t just one benefit that doesn’t necessarily appeal to everyone like you. The “not your keys not your coin” people love the run up in value of BtC since the proliferation of wallet exchanges, GBTC, futures, options and now the spot ETFs. People round here don’t realize that if everyone had to self custody bitcoin, they would only allocate a small percentage of net worth to it and its value would not be near what it is today. If you’re only interested in BtC int eh same way you would any commodity, then an ETF is just fine.

Far_Statement_2808

Holding your own bitcoin takes a very modest amount of effort. I appreciate that some people just don’t want the risk or bother. That’s cool. You will get a similar return through the ETF. Why not? It’s all about increasing/maintaining wealthy. Your ETF isn’t going to get stolen or lost. Bitcoins in self custody are stolen and lost every day. Tax implications are similar. I guess there are people who would argue about not being beholden to a big Wall Street bank. That’s good in theory. In reality you will pay your taxes. And..the people most against the big banks are already stacking sats and gold. There are multiple ways to skin a cat. Find the one that allows you to sleep well at night.

GeorgePakaw

You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? The cash withdrawal from my spot ETF that bought it is real.

JustinRoilad

In Canada ETF gains in registered accounts are not taxed. I'm here for profit. I don't care about the tech and all the ownership BS

Cool-Topic8096

Thinking it will be gone. You will be lucky to get a little of your own Bitcoin at a higher cost due to actual Bitcoin being resold to people. It is pure. People are in denial about the future. Just what I'm feeling after studying it the last 3 years. Why wouldn't you just buy the pure asset along with the ETF. Diversify. Pure seems to be the only way. Not sure what people are thinking. Give a banker your asset. Promise to give it back when you need it most. Promise. And it takes 3 days to get the money cashed from the etf. Are we moving backwards? Crypto is instant to a few hours. I don't get people, but we are early and some are scared. Will be too late for many after mass adoption.

BTCMAXE

[Bitcoin ETF trading hours](https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+etf+trading+hours&client=safari&sca_esv=359d6b2fe139ffab&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=ADLYWIJMc27lY6E_e4KKU-h-_iEDZDwT8Q%3A1715456639424&source=hp&ei=f8o_ZpXwF7O90PEP-O-ruAo&oq=bitcoin+etf+trading+hours&gs_lp=EhFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocCIZYml0Y29pbiBldGYgdHJhZGluZyBob3VyczIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFSLBlUMIQWN5WcAF4AJABAZgBjhigAZ9lqgETMC4zLjEuMS4wLjEuMi41LjAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCDaACmlaoAg_CAgcQIxgnGOoCwgINEC4Y0QMYxwEYJxjqAsICChAuGOUEGCcY6gLCAgsQuQEYJxjqAhjvBMICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgQQIxgnwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAggQABiABBixA8ICDhAAGIAEGJECGLEDGIoFwgILEAAYgAQYkQIYigXCAgUQIRigAZgDEJIHETEuMy4xLjEuMC4xLjEuNC4xoAfQVA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp) 🤣 Ok, bub…. You too.

abgtw

If all the ETF money allows us to get back to $20k there are bigger systemic problems that will worry me. I just hope we don't go below $50k.

omg_its_dan

You remove the risk of losing coins, but you introduce new risks. Holding the ETF puts you way more at risk of government fuckery than self custody actual BTC.

BTCMAXE

You’re confusing trading with redemption. The ETFs trade on the stock exchange—that’s only open M-F, 9:30 am - 4:00 pm.—and isn’t changing. Maybe a couple of the ETFs have reduced redemption time to one business day, but that’s not applicable here—once the trade is made, it’s made. Whether you get your money in one day or 2 days is immaterial. NO ETF will be trading outside of the market hours I’ve detailed above. So yes, I rest my case.

BTC-brother2018

Lack of ownership. When you buy a Bitcoin ETF, you own shares of the fund, not the Bitcoin itself. This means you don't have control over the actual assets, and you can't participate in decisions such as when to buy or sell specific amounts of Bitcoin, nor can you use Bitcoin for payments or transfers.

Acklay92

There are definitely pros to buying the ETF. I hold FBTC in my ROTH account - (tax free gains babyyyyy!!!) On the other hand I also have some bitcoin in cold storage. If your goal is to convert your bitcoin to dollars sometime down the road, and if you trust the companies providing the ETFs, then buying the ETFs could make a lot of sense - especially in tax-advantaged accounts.

-Sonmi451-

Even if you decide to go the ETF route (which I think is reasonable in plenty of circumstances), I would advise putting a certain % of your allocation in cold-stored Bitcoin. This is assuming that you understand the basics of cold-storage, and are at least competent with tech (i.e. you can determine phishing attempts, etc). That way you have some amount of money that is outside the existing financial system.

HydraGene

>They're not going to seize ETF shares without a safe exit in place Your thoughts are based on false assumptions. There's been enough gov fuckery in history that left people for dead.

MPH2025

You don’t own the money in your bank account, you don’t own the money in your bitcoin, ETF, and you don’t own the money in any of your retirement accounts. Bitcoin, and maybe a few other digital assets, and precious metals are the ONLY thing you can actually own right now, real estate. You don’t own your house, you don’t own your land, and you don’t own your Fiat investments. Self custody of bitcoin is the only thing you can actually own right now.

GeorgePakaw

Won't they just pay their debt, which will create more dollars and increase inflation while I watch my spot ETF go to the mooooon?

Walmart_Warrior_420

You're the ideal client for ETF's, just be aware of the reasons why people don't buy them ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

BTCMAXE

Let’s put aside the fact that you don’t own BTC when you buy the ETF…. You only have a claim on it—as you would with leaving actual BTC on an exchange. Anyhow, let’s say, on a weekend, Bitcoin goes up over $10k, and you want to cash-in and book your profits. How are you going to do that? The answer is: You can’t. You have to wait until Monday morning @ 9:30. But then, the price may have already retreated back to where it was, and you’ll have missed out. Same idea goes the other way— if the price tanks on a weekend. I rest my case.

Corbimos

PSA: You don't own bitcoin through an ETF. You own an IOU that is redeemable for the USD value of bitcoin. The Institution owns the bitcoin, sure, but trusted 3rd parties are security holes. Remember [Executive Order 6102](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102) where the government made holding gold illegal and the majority was easily confiscated because it was held with institutions. This is exactly why Bitcoin was created, to prevent confiscation. Holding bitcoin with a 3rd party is going backwards. Self custody is the only way to own bitcoin.

ElDiabloRamon

Personally i am investing in both raw bitcoin, and also fidelity and blackrock ETF shares. The reason is, i would rather spend money from the ETF, than from my pile of actual bitcoin. Right now i am primarly focusing on building up my bitcoin stack. But once its gone off the market, (6 months my guess) i will be buying up more shares of IBIT.

GeorgePakaw

Why should I care if all I want is to transfer the value to USD years from now? They're not going to seize ETF shares without a safe exit in place, so who cares? (again, please destroy this argument)

Real_Crab_7396

I'm buying the ETF right now, because it's easier for me and has a tax benefit for me. I think in a couple of years I will buy my own bitcoin, but for now the ETF is good. I know I'll sell when I think the top is in for this 4 year cycle and I know I won't use it as a currency before that anyways.

Abundance144

>I'd be perfectly fine with trading an ETF for the equivalent in cash which I could re-invest elsewhere. You'd be perfectly fine with it until the government seized it and paid you what they said was fair value; and that value was 50% of what it was trading for on the open market.

daemonpenguin

This is pretty misleading. Executive Order 6102 required citizens to turn in _most_ gold (not all) in their possession in exchange for the equivalent amount in dollars. In other words, the government _bought_ gold from people, it didn't just seize it. I'd be perfectly fine with tracking an ETF for the equivalent in cash which I could re-invest elsewhere.

RebelliousRoomba

Because it’s an IOU for Bitcoin, and not actually the asset. That means that the government fuckery you mentioned is a massive risk for you as an ETF owner. I say this as someone that does own shares of a BTC ETF in my 401K, but I only do that because it was the only way to get my retirement investments exposure to Bitcoin. All of the rest I own BTC in cold storage, just in case the US government decides to do what government often have throughout history and tries to seize assets.

DoubleUglyWhisperer

Would this chart include the BTC being held in custody on exchanges on behalf of the new ETF's? For example, a bunch of the ETFs currently using Coinbase for custody?

Odd_Warthog_1965

Alternative facts? Crypto has been under constant attack by the Biden administration and its democrat allies, but I suppose I’m not to believe my lying eyes and ears about what democrats have been saying and doing. Also, Biden and Obama were in office back in 2013 when the first spot Bitcoin ETF application was made, and Grayscale had to take the SEC to court to finally pave the way for approval this year. There’s no credit here to be given to the Biden administration. I can still see through my seething hatred of Trump to understand that the democrats have been and will remain antagonistic toward crypto. Because we lost the balance of the Supreme Court for our lifetimes as a result of the sanctimonious crowd who couldn’t vote for Hillary due to their hurt feelings for Bernie, and because democrats have repeatedly shown they are incapable or unwilling to legislate anything meaningfully good for the Court to overturn anyway, being “single issue” about this and “in it for tech” is about the last real hope I can see for now.

BuffaloBrain884

The CEO of a Hong Kong Bitcoin ETF issuer directly saying that he's interested in offering the ETF to mainland China is actual news. That doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen, but this coming directly from the CEO of Harvest, not some random "crypto influencer"

Interesting_Ebb9052

JP MORGAN filling for a BTC ETF is bigger than

NambaCatz

What would you rather have: an ounce of gold or a piece of paper that represents an ounce of gold? ETF's are just little pieces of paper: blown away by the wind, destroyed in the washing machine, burnt to ashes in the fireplace, or even worse, used to manipulate the market, since there is no relation between an ETF trade and an actual movement of value on the blockchain.

Luppoz

Now they got ETF. Are you working with that? (I dont care) So you own Bitcoin because you are afraid of your workplace? I Dident understand your hostility, but now I do. In your spare time after work, you can maybe figure out how the US is going to delete its loans? WW3, or can you fix it? Yes, I assume you are from the US. Again, I don't care. ICP is on the fast track doing something towards real world usecase, very low cost, and fast. It's coming I thought you were done after your last message. I'm done

customtoggle

The ETF was a bust, the halvening was a bust...what's the next narrative to take us to $100k+?! 😨😨😨

mutinomonem

Don't listen to that scrap guy. He's all over this post shitting on everything anyone says. Best to just block him. I remember you asking about ETFs, it's fine. It's up to you how you buy, maybe you'll need to do a bit of both. Depends on your risk profile. For me, like I said I'm pretty polarised and this is just how I see it. Not what's right for you. I prioritise building enough real bitcoin to retire in a different country. I trust the gov will not change monetary policy and keep pushing the "poor" to punish the "less poor" in an effort to look like they're doing something. All assets are at risk. In the US, land of the free, Biden wants unrealised gains tax. I'd renounce my citizenship for that and take my bitcoin elsewhere. Can't do that with an ETF. They made sure of it, they also know exactly how much you have. Bitcoin isn't just money to me, it's freedom and it's a vote where my vote hasn't mattered for too long. It's going to start mattering but people need to trust that bitcoin can buy them freedom, only if used as intended. I don't trust that they're going to fix monetary policy and I don't trust that my pension will even be there by retirement. Gov has got to a point where they forgot they work for the people and have the people thinking they work for the gov. I will one day raise my kids somewhere that gets it right.

SmoothGoing

So what? Anyone can buy ETF shares. bitcoinmagazine is unwelcome for shilling chainspam.